Is Riverside/Avondale Ready For Mellow Mushroom?

[thelakelander]

Attended the Thursday mtg and couldn't believe how MM stretched the truth. At one time Valentine said he was used to working w/ neighborhoods because the beach location is in a neighborhood. HAH! A neighborhood of commercial establishments maybe but not homes.

Actually, they are pretty similar.  3rd Street is a linear commercial strip just like St. Johns.  The blocks on either side of 3rd are residential....just like St. Johns.  The only difference is, is that most of Jax Beach is autocentric.

As for the attendance at the mtg. The neighbors were respectful. There were a few outbursts and I remember some applause on both sides but no booing. It seemed like a typical neighborhood mtg. But I guess by MJ standards neighbors are to be seen but not heard.

You posting on MJ makes you a member.  Several of your neighborhoods have posted here as well.  Some are in favor, so aren't.  That's urban living in general.  You'll never get 100% support either way.

No neighborhood should be asked to absorb drunks peeing, passing out or throwing up in their yards or driving down their streets. Nor should they be expected to have the fabric of their neighborhoods torn apart.

What does this have to do with this project?  Is Mellow Mushroom known for generating drunks who pee and pass out in people's yards?  Is that the experience that Mellow is bringing to communities across the nation?

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ neighbors opposing commercial intrusion. But on this thread you'd think there was.

Luckily, this particular project is located in a commercial area in a building that was constructed as a commercial use in 1922.

[thelakelander]

^There was a recent article in the Jax Biz Journal that interviewed several property owners and businesses in the strip who were in favor.  In addition, there have been several nearby residents that have posted in these thread who are in favor of infill.  Why don't their opinions matter?

They are in the minority.  Most of those interviewed in that article lease their spaces from those of us who actually own the real estate.  And most of the businesses are opposed to the MM project and the other pending additions yet to come.

Then it seems like your best answer is to modify the zoning code to not allow anyone else to move or open a business in the area.  I don't know how that would hold up in court but that's the best way to tell others what they can/can't do with their property without pooling your finances together and buying up all the remaining property.

[Ocklawaha]

Well it could always be turned back into a full service gas station. Get a couple of good mechanic's and bring on the Edsel's. A couple dozen broken down cars in various state's of repair should be just what the doctor ordered. Conversely you could board it up and let it become the home to all sorts of interesting nighttime activity. Lastly, you could level it and create a really nice concrete surface parking lot, IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITIES.

Nobody is bullying anybody on this thread, though one did call Lakelander's ideas, (based on years of study and practice as an urban planner), "laughable." I simply matched his comment. This isn't a debate by a bunch of hysterical reactionaries, rather you are seeing a 'planner' for RAP, as well as some of the RAP board, debate the significance of a streetcar with another group of urban and railroad planners. Both historically as well as contemporarily, it is one simple answer to ALL of the questions. It's already in the mobility plan, and had the city council not placed an irresponsible moratorium on the plan, we would be nearing construction right about now.

That we can't, "understand our perspective." assumes that none of us at MJ have a stake in the community; we do. At least 3 of us own property or have relations living there. They may, "want their 250 seats.  Period." And if those 250 people boarded a streetcar in a remote parking lot at Roosevelt or somewhere downtown and rode to the site there would be no argument against the restaurant's plans.

[Dashing Dan]

Lakelander says:
Actually, they are pretty similar.  3rd Street is a linear commercial strip just like St. Johns.  The blocks on either side of 3rd are residential....just like St. Johns.  The only difference is, is that most of Jax Beach is autocentric.

The block directly behind MM at the beach is commercial save for 2 structures across the street which are rentals of some type. In Avondale houses back directly across the alley from the proposed MM.

You take everything MM says as the gospel. Do you even listen to neighbors? 10 pm to 2 am happy hour isn't neighborhood friendly.

As for the poster who said

[thelakelander]

Lakelander says:
Actually, they are pretty similar.  3rd Street is a linear commercial strip just like St. Johns.  The blocks on either side of 3rd are residential....just like St. Johns.  The only difference is, is that most of Jax Beach is autocentric.

The block directly behind MM at the beach is commercial save for 2 structures across the street which are rentals of some type. In Avondale houses back directly across the alley from the proposed MM.

The block behind the MM beach location is 4th Street, which is residential.  However, the MM block is fully commercial.  To be precise, the MM beach location is an outparcel for a shopping strip behind it on the same block.  However, overall, it is a linear commercial strip with residential on the surrounding blocks.  The major difference is the beach strip is autocentric.  A shopping center with an outparcel would fit that definition.

You take everything MM says as the gospel. Do you even listen to neighbors? 10 pm to 2 am happy hour isn't neighborhood friendly.

As for the poster who said

I typically try and stick with the extents of zoning and context.  With these things serving as a starting point, I then try find logical compromises.  Here, we're talking about reuse of a property that has been commercial since the beginning of the community's existence.  If there is dislike of the commercial product, address the zoning that allows it, not the product.

[Tonyinchicago]

I have noticed a pattern on this site where a few users bully and name-call others who oppose them into submission .  These few users seem to have an opinion about everything and everyone, making tens of thousands of posts on this one site alone (2 users).   It is laughable that MM gives a flying mushroom about the parking nightmare they will be adding to.  They want their 250 seats.  Period.  Unless you guys are property owners in this strip, you cannot understand our perspective.

Ah, tony.  So I guess we should just shut the hell up, right?

We've been posting for 7 years now, and thats not going to change anytime soon.

Additionally, I am very curious  to hear about the magical qualities that avondale property ownership confers that are so godlike that us mere mortals simply cannot understand the divine perspective.

You are posting on a public policy and planning website incidentally.  Just thought you might want to know that.

Its not anyone's fault but dashing dan's that he is so terribly wrong about the history and importance of fixed rail transit in the neighborhood.  He has access to the same kind of fact checking that we do.  Perhaps looking up the factual elements of his posts first would have saved him the embarrassment of stubbornly digging in to a position of specious nonsense.

Well Stephen, I agree with 90% of what you post  (what I read anyway).  And it's interesting that my posts concerning transit are not what prompted you to make such an over the top and silly response.  There is nothing "godlike" about owning multiple properties or my concerns for what directly affects my street.  Im so sorry you choose to interpret my words so incorrectly.  I think your opinions matter as does anyone else who lives in this area.  It's just some of have a larger risk in this matter.

Additionally, I understand that you guys have been blogging for 7 years and that will not change.  We have been dealing with Avondale parking issues for 20 years and that will not change either.

[Tonyinchicago]

In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

[thelakelander]

Additionally, I understand that you guys have been blogging for 7 years and that will not change.  We have been dealing with Avondale parking issues for 20 years and that will not change either.

Hopefully, it will.  20 years is too long to circle the wagons without implementing a viable solution.

[thelakelander]

Ockalawa has posted some very pretty pictures of streetcars  I could not agree more that mass transit is the answer.  But before you start digging up streets for rail, the existing system that is already in place (buses) will need to show a significant increase in customers.  This is done by transit trackers.  Someone earlier in this lengthy thread stated that other cities that have this system only saw a 10% increase in ridership.  Hard to believe but the study may be factual.  You MUST have a bridge between customer and product in the form of transit trackers in this day and tech age.  I use mass transit every day here in Chicago and the trackers are essential to being at my stop and not freezing my ass off.  I can time my elevator ride down out of my building and arrive 1/2 a block away without any wait. 

In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

I don't know about that.  Places like Mellow and the neighborhood in general appeal to young professionals/transit choice riders.  The same young professionals that Jax has had trouble retaining.  However, regarding MM (and other short term projects), better utilization of existing on and off street parking capacity should suffice.  Fixed transit and modification of existing bus services is something that should be promoted now so that it's incrementally implemented by the end of the decade to help deal with long term issues.

[Tonyinchicago]

Ockalawa has posted some very pretty pictures of streetcars  I could not agree more that mass transit is the answer.  But before you start digging up streets for rail, the existing system that is already in place (buses) will need to show a significant increase in customers.  This is done by transit trackers.  Someone earlier in this lengthy thread stated that other cities that have this system only saw a 10% increase in ridership.  Hard to believe but the study may be factual.  You MUST have a bridge between customer and product in the form of transit trackers in this day and tech age.  I use mass transit every day here in Chicago and the trackers are essential to being at my stop and not freezing my ass off.  I can time my elevator ride down out of my building and arrive 1/2 a block away without any wait. 

In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

I don't know about that.  Places like Mellow and the neighborhood in general appeal to young professionals/transit choice riders.  The same young professionals that Jax has had trouble retaining.  However, regarding MM (and other short term projects), better utilization of existing on and off street parking capacity should suffice.  Fixed transit and modification of existing bus services is something that should be promoted now so that it's incrementally implemented by the end of the decade to help deal with long term issues.

That statement is insane.  Do you really want to ague with me about the problems of parking in Avondale now before any other businesses go in.  The parking situation is a nightmare.  I know first hand of the complaints from the customers and residents.  You know nothing of this.

[Tonyinchicago]

Ockalawa has posted some very pretty pictures of streetcars  I could not agree more that mass transit is the answer.  But before you start digging up streets for rail, the existing system that is already in place (buses) will need to show a significant increase in customers.  This is done by transit trackers.  Someone earlier in this lengthy thread stated that other cities that have this system only saw a 10% increase in ridership.  Hard to believe but the study may be factual.  You MUST have a bridge between customer and product in the form of transit trackers in this day and tech age.  I use mass transit every day here in Chicago and the trackers are essential to being at my stop and not freezing my ass off.  I can time my elevator ride down out of my building and arrive 1/2 a block away without any wait. 

In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

I don't know about that.  Places like Mellow and the neighborhood in general appeal to young professionals/transit choice riders.  The same young professionals that Jax has had trouble retaining.  However, regarding MM (and other short term projects), better utilization of existing on and off street parking capacity should suffice.  Fixed transit and modification of existing bus services is something that should be promoted now so that it's incrementally implemented by the end of the decade to help deal with long term issues.

That statement is insane.  Do you really want to ague with me about the problems of parking in Avondale now before any other businesses go in.  The parking situation is a nightmare.  I know first hand of the complaints from the customers and residents.  You know nothing of this.

Wow.  Must be those godlike Avondale property ownership powers of perception at play.

It's not about that, it's about knowing from experience, from being there.  Witnessing what you see.  Hearing what people tell you on the spot.  These personal attacks are unfair.  Just stop this nonsense. 

[Tonyinchicago]

It's not about that, it's about knowing from experience, from being there.  Witnessing what you see.  Hearing what people tell you on the spot.  These personal attacks are unfair.  Just stop this nonsense. 

[Tonyinchicago]

I see your point but you were the one using the term "godlike", not me, long before I used the word "insane".  I also take issue with being called "dumb as a box of rocks".  So you have no issue with my being called that.  You made your point, can you see mine?  Just sayin.....

[thelakelander]

Tominchicago,

What's your solution?  Why hasn't it been implemented after two decades of dealing with it (as you described earlier in this thread)?

[Tonyinchicago]

Tominchicago,

What's your solution?  Why hasn't it been implemented after two decades of dealing with it (as you described earlier in this thread)?

The city created this problem within the past two years by changing the overlay which has existed for decades.  Why is incumbent on me to find a solution for any further addition of seating in an area that already has major parking issues with whats here now.  You do not the whole story and it's way too much to type.