Occupy Wall Street vs the Tea Party

[JeffreyS]

Yes but De-regulation is a bad mantra. 

[FayeforCure]

Why aren't tea-partiers supporting this? Don't they think frequent computerized trading(10,000 trades per minute) has a de-stabilizing effect on our economy?
Don't they think heavy speculation artificially inflates prices and causes a de-stabilizing effect on our economy?
Or are they simply loath to use taxes as a deterrrant to out-of-control trading?


Both 'Occupy' Marchers And Dem Politicians Rally Behind Taxing Wall Street Trades


Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:23pm â€"



Matt Taylor


At least 1,500 members of the National Nurses Union (NNU) and Occupy D.C. activists marched on the Treasury Department on Thursday morning to call for a "meaningful" tax on Wall Street trading -- one day after Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon) introduced a bill that would levy a small tax on a wide range of financial transactions.

The unplanned convergence between Democratic politicians and the protesters, who have generally refrained from making specific demands, offered a hint of how the populist energy from the "Occupy" movement might translate into policy. "Occupy Wall Street made people feel they're part of a very large community," said DeFazio, who has supported similar legislation in the past, in an interview with The National Memo. "As people have been awakened, they're going to look for things to take action on."

The White House has not been supportive of previous proposals. President Barack Obama shied away from the policy and instead revived a 2010 idea for a "financial crisis responsibility fee" when he arrived at the G20 summit in Cannes, France, this week; the fee would recoup the remaining losses from the 2008 bailout and help provide a base of support for any future rescues. (The conference itself, which brought together the most powerful economic policymakers in the world so they could meet on the elegant French Riviera, seemed designed to spark populist outrage.)

Secretary of the Treasury Tim Geithner has long been skeptical of a tax -- reportedly arguing against one in a September meeting with top European financial officials -- and multiple high-level labor sources said they considered him the main obstacle within the administration.

"Geithner has voiced opposition but in a way that leaves the door open," DeFazio said with a hint of optimism, indicating that he believes the secretary will only support an FTT if it is imposed by a large contingent of those countries with active financial markets, including England and other E.U. nations.

DeFazio and Harkin's bill, the Wall Street Trading And Speculators Tax Act, would slap a tax of 0.03 percent (or three basis points) on transactions that occurred after the initial issuance of a stock, bond, and other kinds of securities. The rate was kept deliberately low so everything but the riskiest kinds of trades would still be profitable.

"What we want to do is maximize our revenue without hurting pension funds and self-directed IRAs," said DeFazio, an outspoken liberal who voted against the TARP bailout in 2008. "But [we also want] a level of tax that's adequate to drive the super-high level speculators out of the market, or at least exact a substantial revenue from them."

Harkin's Communications Director Kate Cyrul also argued that a higher rate "hurts the likelihood of the measure becoming law," but the marchers in D.C. seemed unenthused by the prospect of a watered-down legislative compromise. Instead, the protesters called for a tax of 0.5 percent (or 50 basis points) -- nearly 20 times higher than the rate proposed by two of the most liberal members in Congress -- in order to raise $350 billion for jobs programs and infrastructure investment.

"We don't want a token," said Karen Higgins, a staff nurse from Boston and a national co-president of NNU. "We went through this with the health care bill, where instead of doing what is right, we did [what was easy]." The nurses don't want to pass a small tax that critics will be able to say failed to bring in substantial new revenues or significantly change Wall Street's behavior.

The rest of the labor movement, while not as hard-line as the nurses' union, also wants to see a heftier tax that makes a dent in Wall Street gambling.

"The AFL-CIO believes that a 10 basis points tax would serve three critical goals: raising considerable revenue, increasing the fairness of our tax code, and deterring speculative trades that constitute either gambling or gaming the system rather than long-term investing," said Jeff Hauser, a spokesman for the labor group.

But Democratic aides close to the legislation say going higher than three basis points risked halting many transactions, including derivative trades (and thus gutting the revenue stream), something they indicated was not a goal of their bill, even if Occupy Wall Street protesters might welcome the change.

Follow National Correspondent Matt Taylor on Twitter @matthewt_ny

http://www.nationalmemo.com/article/financial-transaction-tax-nurses-union-defining-issue-democrats-occupy-wall-street

Obama again being too weak to bring about meaningful reform........or too bought and paid for by the Finance Industry to want to risk irking them.

[Ajax]

Not exactly on point, but worth a read.  Depending on your point of view, destroying the derivatives sector could be considered a bug or a feature.   

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/tax-and-economy/hanging-london-out-to-dry%3a-the-impact-of-an-eu-financial-transaction-tax/

Our new report, released today, assesses the impact of a Financial Transaction Tax (aka Robin Hood Tax) on Britain's economy. The results are eye-watering â€" it would destroy the City's derivatives trading sector, hit Britain's growth and ramp up market volatility. The executive summary is below:

1) The European Commission has proposed a Financial Transaction Tax (FTT) on all securities traded with at least one party within the European Union. A tax of 0.1% would be applied to shares and bonds trades and 0.01% to derivatives trades, including over-the-counter derivatives, of which London is a world centre.

2) The EC’s impact assessment projects a 1.76% hit to long-term (20-year) growth across the EU. This would amount to a £25.58 billion cost to the UK economy over this period, and a £185 billion cost to the total European Union economy (2010 prices). This is based on a direct application of the cost to Britain’s economy. The true figure is likely to be far greater, because of Britain’s disproportionately large financial sector (and especially its derivatives trading sector).

3) The EC impact assessment also projects up to a 90% decline in derivatives trading if its proposed Financial Transaction Tax is implemented. The City of London is the centre of global over-the-counter derivatives trading, accounting for nearly half (45.8%) of all global interest rates derivatives turnover. This would adversely and disproportionately hurt the London economy, and would destroy a socially-valuable financial activity that it integral to the modern British economy.

4) Contrary to some supporters of the FTT, the tax would increase market volatility. There is no empirical support for the idea that the FTT would reduce volatility. Indeed, by making transactions more costly, the tax would make markets less responsive to new information and more prone to violent lurches up and down. Academic models of the tax have been inconclusive at best.

5) The FTT would reduce market liquidity in all securities markets. 40% of the London Stock Exchange’s volume is based on high-volume, low-margin transactions, which would be wiped out by the FTT, making markets far more illiquid. Markets’ ability to incorporate new information into asset prices would be undermined.

6) Unemployment would rise if an FTT was introduced. At the margin, the FTT would mean less investment and less output. The tax, if implemented in 2014 as proposed by the EC, would slow down an economic recovery and reduce capital investment. The EC’s long-run projection for this is a 4.5% reduction in investment.

7) If the FTT was only introduced in the EU or G20, many traders currently operating in the UK would relocate to places like Hong Kong, Singapore or Zurich. There is little scope for a worldwide FTT â€" even types of trades that are affected in a minor way by the FTT would likely move en masse to other jurisdictions that would flourish as FTT-free zones.

[civil42806]

Why aren't tea-partiers supporting this? Don't they think frequent computerized trading(10,000 trades per minute) has a de-stabilizing effect on our economy?
Don't they think heavy speculation artificially inflates prices and causes a de-stabilizing effect on our economy?
Or are they simply loath to use taxes as a deterrrant to out-of-control trading?


Both 'Occupy' Marchers And Dem Politicians Rally Behind Taxing Wall Street Trades


Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:23pm â€"



Matt Taylor


At least 1,500 members of the National Nurses Union (NNU) and Occupy D.C. activists marched on the Treasury Department on Thursday morning to call for a "meaningful" tax on Wall Street trading -- one day after Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon) introduced a bill that would levy a small tax on a wide range of financial transactions.

The unplanned convergence between Democratic politicians and the protesters, who have generally refrained from making specific demands, offered a hint of how the populist energy from the "Occupy" movement might translate into policy. "Occupy Wall Street made people feel they're part of a very large community," said DeFazio, who has supported similar legislation in the past, in an interview with The National Memo. "As people have been awakened, they're going to look for things to take action on."

The White House has not been supportive of previous proposals. President Barack Obama shied away from the policy and instead revived a 2010 idea for a "financial crisis responsibility fee" when he arrived at the G20 summit in Cannes, France, this week; the fee would recoup the remaining losses from the 2008 bailout and help provide a base of support for any future rescues. (The conference itself, which brought together the most powerful economic policymakers in the world so they could meet on the elegant French Riviera, seemed designed to spark populist outrage.)

Secretary of the Treasury Tim Geithner has long been skeptical of a tax -- reportedly arguing against one in a September meeting with top European financial officials -- and multiple high-level labor sources said they considered him the main obstacle within the administration.

"Geithner has voiced opposition but in a way that leaves the door open," DeFazio said with a hint of optimism, indicating that he believes the secretary will only support an FTT if it is imposed by a large contingent of those countries with active financial markets, including England and other E.U. nations.

DeFazio and Harkin's bill, the Wall Street Trading And Speculators Tax Act, would slap a tax of 0.03 percent (or three basis points) on transactions that occurred after the initial issuance of a stock, bond, and other kinds of securities. The rate was kept deliberately low so everything but the riskiest kinds of trades would still be profitable.

"What we want to do is maximize our revenue without hurting pension funds and self-directed IRAs," said DeFazio, an outspoken liberal who voted against the TARP bailout in 2008. "But [we also want] a level of tax that's adequate to drive the super-high level speculators out of the market, or at least exact a substantial revenue from them."

Harkin's Communications Director Kate Cyrul also argued that a higher rate "hurts the likelihood of the measure becoming law," but the marchers in D.C. seemed unenthused by the prospect of a watered-down legislative compromise. Instead, the protesters called for a tax of 0.5 percent (or 50 basis points) -- nearly 20 times higher than the rate proposed by two of the most liberal members in Congress -- in order to raise $350 billion for jobs programs and infrastructure investment.

"We don't want a token," said Karen Higgins, a staff nurse from Boston and a national co-president of NNU. "We went through this with the health care bill, where instead of doing what is right, we did [what was easy]." The nurses don't want to pass a small tax that critics will be able to say failed to bring in substantial new revenues or significantly change Wall Street's behavior.

The rest of the labor movement, while not as hard-line as the nurses' union, also wants to see a heftier tax that makes a dent in Wall Street gambling.

"The AFL-CIO believes that a 10 basis points tax would serve three critical goals: raising considerable revenue, increasing the fairness of our tax code, and deterring speculative trades that constitute either gambling or gaming the system rather than long-term investing," said Jeff Hauser, a spokesman for the labor group.

But Democratic aides close to the legislation say going higher than three basis points risked halting many transactions, including derivative trades (and thus gutting the revenue stream), something they indicated was not a goal of their bill, even if Occupy Wall Street protesters might welcome the change.

Follow National Correspondent Matt Taylor on Twitter @matthewt_ny

http://www.nationalmemo.com/article/financial-transaction-tax-nurses-union-defining-issue-democrats-occupy-wall-street

Obama again being too weak to bring about meaningful reform........or too bought and paid for by the Finance Industry to want to risk irking them.

because most tea party members have a job and don;t believe on shi**ing on police cars.  dont get much simpler than tha

[JeffreyS]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

[civil42806]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Good for you

[BridgeTroll]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

[JeffreyS]

You know it BT. Just like I know there fringe elements in the Tea Party, the green party, Christianity, and every other large group.  OWS is so young and is more of a protest than a group so it may more of a just joined in to be rowdy than others at this point.

Stephen no doubt a few storm trooper style policemen have exacerbated a few of the protests.

For the most part it has just been a peaceful protest well policed about how we have given too much power to corporations.

[BridgeTroll]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

[FayeforCure]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Another possibility is that anti-OWS forces have planted vandals among the crowd in order to distract from an otherwise peaceful movement.

You know how it is..........the status quo folks would like nothing better than to "shoot the messenger" rather than  to really address our problems.

[FayeforCure]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

Yup street vandalism should be prosecuted but the economic vandals on Wall Street get a free pass (snark) 

[BridgeTroll]

You know it BT. Just like I know there fringe elements in the Tea Party, the green party, Christianity, and every other large group.  OWS is so young and is more of a protest than a group so it may more of a just joined in to be rowdy than others at this point.

Stephen no doubt a few storm trooper style policemen have exacerbated a few of the protests.

For the most part it has just been a peaceful protest well policed about how we have given too much power to corporations.

Thank you Jeffery.  Does this mean we can stop identifying a few fringe players in a particular movement with the worst qualities of those fringe players?  I hope so... In a civil discussion... this is the proper way to do it.

[BridgeTroll]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Another possibility is that anti-OWS forces have planted vandals among the crowd in order to distract from an otherwise peaceful movement.

You know how it is..........the status quo folks would like nothing better than to "shoot the messenger" rather than  to really address our problems.

Gee faye... you dont suppose that sort of skullduggery could have happened at the tea party rallies... whoda thunk it...

[BridgeTroll]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

Yup street vandalism should be prosecuted but the economic vandals on Wall Street get a free pass (snark) 

(more snark)  Prosecute em faye!  Sue em!  I encourage it.  If laws were broken... prosecute.

[JeffreyS]

I think our government considers the Wall Street banksters too big to jail.